This all started because a guy [greatestever11] made a comment about if people believed and followed the bible literally that we would be stoning 99% of our teenagers.. so I replied to him agreeing with him basically
I am waxxjf of course in the debate. I may get a new page soon
I am a straight male Atheist who does not like any type of bigotry, be it religious to a sexual orientation, be it theist beating up on another theistic beliefs, etc
okay here is the debate
Ah, youtube debate are entertaining
Yes I know I am long winded, and I know this is not really an "art" but I did not want it in journal and for it to stretch my page
If he ever answers I shall update this post and put my reply as well, I will not be changing anything, so any spelling or grammatical errors shall stay.
I am posting it as an "art" because I do not want to post it in journal and have it take up that whole side of the page
I do always find it funny when people bring up Leviticus ... which is from the Hebrew bible.
if Jesus was so anti-gay, why in all of the gospels of Jesus he never mentioned gays at all?
Speaking of your mentioning of what the bible says, that book also says your daughter can be sold into slavery, you can stone your mother to death for wearing a gown made from two different fabrics, killed if you work on a Sunday, killed if you touch a dead pig... do you follow these as well? Gospels, did jesus never mention gays at all I meant.
..and two weeks later someone replied to me
He didn't say this part to me, but this was his comment right before he commented me
Addy4473: That's horrible. We Christians love homosexuals, we just hate their sins. I pray that every homosexual will see how wrong their actions are, but it's just something that probably won't happen. But if I can save one from living in destruction, then at the very least one soul is saved from hell. God bless.
[Then he replied to me
@waxxjf He didn't mention them, but He does mention God's idea for marriage and supports it in Matthew Chapter 19. Just because He never mentioned it doesn't mean He doesn't condone it. that He does condone it* sorry lol. It's wrong. Jesus is God, so in that sense, He condemns the action unless you repent and are washed through His blood.
@Addy4473 Look at what you said, biblical text, which is not suppose to have any affect on the rights of the citizens, says the constitution. The government should not allow the bible, and bigotry to dictate the laws.
Whether you like gays or not, that is millions of citizens who because of their sexual orientation are being denied the same civil liberties as the rest. The constitution clearly speaks of sexual orientation, race, religion etc never being a factor within the law.
@waxxjf I'm basing it on Jesus' truth. And you used an argument against "our side" using biblical knowledge, didn't you? Anywho we should forsake our ideas of right and wrong and seek God's truth. The majority of people can't change His law.
I love homosexuals, I just don't condone their actions. The same goes for God. And just because you have an orientation (or an attraction, basically) for something doesn't mean you condone it. so.
@Addy4473 It has nothing to do with your ideas of right and wrong. You can believe in whatever you choose, no where in my post did I say you cannot. Yet, your religious beliefs should never dictate the laws of this land, nor should it even be allowed.
In this republic we are not suppose to make laws that violate the civil liberties of our lands, that is what they are attempting to do.
I do find it funny when people speak about what their god would condone. Have you read that book?
How many things did "god" not condone that have become socially acceptable? If those who believe choose now to not pay any attention that which has become socially acceptable, why would they choose to believe in the bigoted part of the book.
@waxxjf They aren't my ideas, my friend. It's God's Word, and I follow His Word, not my ideas . His word is constant, never-changing. We should follow the Lord; that is why we are in such a mess right now. We are soon to fall, and unless we seek the Lord, then our country will not last much longer. Any nation that follows God and obeys Him prospers. Any nation that does otherwise fails. Read what book? The Bible? Of course. And what is your point? What are you talking about?
The bigoted part of the book? The Bible is not biased; it applies for everyone human being. It's a mirror that allows you to see how you live your life, and reflects who you truly are. It isn't meant to make you "feel good". On the contrary, usually something guilty in your life is shown, and you are given the opportunity to repent to God and to be cleansed through Jesus' blood. . We as Christians pay attention to things that have become socially acceptable. That is why we speak against things that are evil. We stand up for God's truth. Just because it's socially acceptable doesn't make it right. The act of homosexuality is horrible, but so are heterosexual sins. In fact, I'm inclined to admit that heterosexuals tend to distort the ideas of marriage more than homosexuals. But that does not condone homosexuality. God instituted marriage between a man and a woman for our benefit. God's gift to us is marriage. Homosexuality, for the most part, does not work.
@Addy4473 It does not apply to all human, it applies to only those who believe in it as you do.
"that is why we speak against things that are evil"
So gays are now "evil".
Question for you, since this is "god's truth", then why has it been rewritten hundreds of time BY MAN? Or did man now speak to god and he said the old rules no longer applied to modern standards?
"God instituted marriage between a man and a woman for our benefit."
You do know people have been getting married long before the idea of god even came about don't you?
"Homosexuality, for the most part, does not work. "
Hm, do tell.
@waxxjf It applies to all that want to live a life of righteousness. And no, I'm not saying homosexuals are evil. Just their actions. It's an evil act. Rewritten? The Word has been rewritten in different languages, with different styles of languages, but the meaning and conclusion of the Word itself has been maintained since the original documents were written by the authors. Nothing has changed in God's Word. As for the old rules, you mean the old testament rules? Ceremonial rules and civil rules don't apply. But moral laws still apply today. And people getting married before the idea of God? Hmm where do you get this information from? jw. As for homosexuality not working out; the statistics are against homosexuality. 73% of homosexuals are depressed. 70% of those that are admit it has nothing to do with bullying (social circumstances, etc.). The average lifespan of a heterosexual is around 70 years. The average lifespan of a homosexual WITHOUT AIDS/HIV is around 40 years. That's without any form of STDs. Homosexual relationships don't work out either. Surveys from homosexual research groups trying to validate homosexual relationships actually prove that they don't last. It's an itch you can't scratch. I believe, truly, that homosexuals just want to be happy; but I also know that engaging in same-sex relations will not bring happiness. True happiness comes from serving God. God bless you
[What I was thinking but didn't say]] Wait, the average lifespan for a gay guy, without any A.I.D.S/HIV is 40 years old.. I really wished I had asked where he got his states from [end thought]
@Addy4473 Do show me this study.
STDs? So us straight people do not get STDs? The newest highest statistics for the Aids/HIV & other STD's are not gays, it is straight people who do not engage in any type of homosexual behaviior. So... I would your theory is a bit flawed.
The problem with many religious people, I don't know about you, yet many religious people think it is a choice, it is not a choice.
I am straight and I know I did not "choose" to be straight. I was born that way, as were they. Are they not allowed to be happy in relationships just because you do not agree with it?
... You do know that most gay people are religious right? They just do not believe their god is bigoted like the one written in man made text.
@waxxjf Friend, I can't just pull out the statistics. I could send you links to websites. But some of the statistics are things that have been recorded that can't be found online. You just have to look at the numbers, ya know? Anywho. I'm not saying that we don't get STDs. Heterosexual sins are just as bad as homosexual sins, and they are not tolerated by God either. However, I'm just stating that homosexuality (the action) is a sin, and it's quite clear in the Bible. Anyone that submits to God will live a righteous live. But if you engage in worldly affairs, then your life will be void of true happiness. My theory? It's more like data that I've accumulated that I'm presenting to you. It's fact that homosexuality leads to many STDs, and that the relationships do not work out. As for the choice factor, I'll agree that the feelings are not choices. I too had homosexual feelings about a year ago. But that feeling is a mere speck. When Jesus came into my life, and I submitted to Him, my heterosexual tendencies increased, and my homosexual tendencies decreased. So it's a miracle indeed! Praise be to God . However, the choice we talk about is whether or not you choose to engage in those actions. You can deal with those feelings and learn to live with them and even possibly overcome then (nothing is impossible with Jesus. Mark 9:23 ) or you can engage in them. If you submit to Jesus, you can overcome. Thousands of cases of people giving their lives to Jesus after living homosexual lifestyles have been submitted, and they diminished those feelings, and in some cases overcame the feelings totally! As for being happy, that's the point. There is no guarantee that it will make them happy. 70% of homosexuals are unhappy (Homosexuals that engage and condone the conduct). It's an itch you can't scratch. Ex-homosexuals can tell you that. As for most gay people being religious? They believe in their own version of God, and not the true God.
God condemns homosexuality (the action), but He offers a way out of sin. Through His Son Jesus. With Jesus, your sins can be wiped clean! But um they believe in a God that condones homosexuality because they want their actions to be condoned. So. They don't believe in the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
@Addy4473 70% ? ....once again, you keep saying that, show me the statistics from a GAY GROUP, not a biased bigoted christian group on gay statistics. Well since you are attempting to use stats to bolster your arguments, it would be wise to back them up to links where you get your info from.
"But if you engage in worldly affairs, then your life will be void of true happiness" That did not make much sense to be honest.
It is data, that you don't remember where you got it, that may or may not be online, and is from more than likely biased groups.
Sex with many partners lead to many STD's, the fact is while the STD's in homosexuals have been going down, STD's in straights have been going up.
It is not a miracle, to turn away from love, be it gay, straight whatever.
I am an atheist, so I hold no water in your man made text, yet what I do dislike, is bigotry, in any form. Hating this person, just because, for no other reason than your text says so. It is not as if homosexuality is something new...and has been recorded in history before your, or the jewish bible was even written.
Homosexuals should be happy with whomever they choose, why should your text dictate their lives, especially if they do not believe in as you do.
Your book also speaks of not judging people, yet Christians are at the forefront in America of demonizing gays, and attempting to put down their civil liberties.
@waxxjf Friend, I speak as someone saved by the grace of God. Jesus' blood flows through me. First of all, your request for Gay Group percentages, in turn, shows a bias in itself. These are statistics that are taken from unbiased groups. I can show you two links, but if you consider them to be biased, then I'm afraid it would do you no good, bud. The same can be concluded for your "gay group" statistics. They are biased, or so they would seem. However, these statistics are also sourced outside of the internet. So I can't send you the link, and I don't have the information at hand. However, it's kinda hard not to be biased, seeing as how I'm against homosexuality. Also, friend, not all Christian's hate homosexuals. We're not all bigots. In fact. many homosexuals are "bigots" because they have a grudge towards heterosexuals, but not all homosexuals are bigots. My man made text is inspired by the Holy Spirit. 78% of homosexuals have had contact with STDs. Wow! Even if they are going down, they've still a ways to go! And your statistics against homosexuality need to be directed towards sinful lifestyles, not towards true followers of Christ. Heterosexual marriage is perfectly legit, as long as it follows the lines of God's idea of marriage. Of course, it's nothing new. The book of Leviticus is recorded by Moses, who wrote these books in the 1400s. The events of Sodom and Gomorrah happened between 2000-1900 B.C., so of course these acts have existed before the compilation of the Bible itself. Homosexuals should follow what's right, not pursuing happiness that won't last. They should pursue the right path: Jesus Christ, who will help them through their sufferering. In the end, a homosexual lifestyle leads to destruction. And yes, it's a miracle to give up a love for evil, and to hate evil instead. It's an evil lifestyle, a deceiving one. You must confront these claims, and discredit them, whether you think they're biased or not.
The statistics are overwhelming, and I'm saying this because it is more important to pursue what's right than what makes one happy. It makes a rapist happy to rape; a murder happy to murder; then what stops us from condoning their actions? They are "happy" at that moment! But it brings pain in the end. We can't condone something just because of a loving factor. Homosexuals have love for each other just as murders, pedophiles, murders, rapists, animal offenders, fornicators, etc. have love love for one another. But the conclusion is, this love is evil and will not last. Only God's holy love can last, and only His love can redefine our love. Love is not confined to a feeling; that is mere affection. Love is more of a willing; a willing to love someone you don't have a natural love for. That is true love, my friend. And I love you very much. God bless you
@Addy4473 You say these are statistics that are from unbiased groups, groups that you can't remember where you got the info from, that may or may not have a website... hm, doesn't sound like it's on the money.
You say these are outside of the internet, then what is the name of the group who made this statistic? If they are a recognized group they will more than likely have a website of some sort.
No where did I say all christians hate gays.
Do you think that could be possibly because of the average heterosexual's view of them?
...actually it isn't, if you study religion you would see that that book is made up of many different faiths that have been around for thousands of years before the bible was even written.
Once again, there you go, 78%.. where is your source!...
That would be hypocritical for me to tell them to not be happy for a belief that I have no use for.
For you maybe, but for Me, if it makes you happy, and no one is hurt, do enjoy it.
Are you actually trying to compare gays to rapist, pedophiles, murderers and bestiality man? I mean REALLY.... If you really wish to make a comparison, would be wise to not use crimes that are mostly committed by heterosexuals...just a thought.
You speak of loving, yet all you have done on here is demonize them. Not for anything they have done, but simply for who they are, how is that showing love?
You may keep the bigoted love, the love that comes with the condition of submission and an intolerance for others not like you. That is a love that is not loving but rather conditional, to which is not love at all.
@waxxjf You're misinterpreting, friend. You have already decided that anything I show you will be biased, so what's the point in showing you the website? I can give you two websites if you wish, just ask for them, but you have to be open-minded to the statistics. Also, the Bible was composed from books that date back to around 1400 B.C.-92 A.D. There are other letters of Paul and books that could have been added, but they were excluded for certain reasons. The Bible is constructed for its validity. It parallels with history, currency, historical figures, etc. and has been around for centuries. And I'm comparing homosexuality, heterosexual sins, sins of murder, hate, discord; all sin is equally fit. So I'm not excusing anyone. Um.... I'm not demonizing anyone I'm just trying to show you the truth. I'm doing this out of a desperate love for you. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. I'm not trying to put you down, I just want you to see the truth. Bigoted love? We don't judge until we remove the beam from our eyes; then we judge out of love, because we don't want anyone to live in sin, we want them to be free of sin. We know how devastating it is, and we want to free people like you from it. It's a much happier life, and of course, there is tribulation and sorrow, but Jesus will always be with you.
[I sent this to him in a private message because youtube only allows so much per message and I did not want to break it all up
@Addy4473: What is it that I misinterpreted? Do tell. It is biased for your using your text as a means to condemn people you have never met, to condemn people not for anything they may or may not have done, but for simply who they are. Open minded? Do tell me sir, why would I need to be open minded on statistics you claimed were unbiased? If they are truly unbiased, they would have no agenda, and thus why would I have to give them leeway? Well the bible's timeline is a lot longer than 92 A.D. Even Christian scholars say this.
Okay just clarifying because that is not what your statement of "Homosexuals have love for each other just as murders, pedophiles, murders, rapists, animal offenders, fornicators, etc" said, it did not speak of heterosexuals, yet used homosexuals love as it compared to the formerly mentioned.
You are demonizing them, by saying they are wrong, they are depressed, though I would like to see an unbiased statistic that shows, as you have claimed that 73% of homosexuals are depressed, or your other claim that says 78% of them have had some type of STD, I would like to see theses statistics. You used them to somehow bolster your claims of why it is wrong. Yet as in my original statement, just because it is in the bible as wrong, does not make it wrong.
We can look at things the bible says is wrong, that have become socially accepted, and as such people do not subscribe to that particular part of the bible. I understand that it is easy to pick on the minority, it is easy to say this is wrong because it is not like us, I get that, do I agree with it, no, but I understand the this or that attitude.
You are trying to show me your truth, and attempt to set everyone to those standards. You can't put me down, for you to be able to do that I would have to hold some truth in your book, I do not.
If you are happy being a Christian, be happy. If you are truly happy being an ex-homosexual, then be happy, if you need god, to get up each day, to make your life have a purpose, then by all means, go ahead. Yet do not use your god as a means to degrade or make another's value less than because they do not have the same set of standards as you, or they do not have the same beliefs as you. Or even, they may believe in the same god, and just choose to believe that their god will not hate them for who, as they believe, he/she made them to be.
"We don't judge until we remove the beam from our eyes; then we judge out of love"
You judge them out of love, of all the hypocrisy that has been said thus far, this sir, takes the cake.
If as you said earlier, all humans are sinful, then are you not already living in a place of sin? Oh do tell me about freeing people like me. Oh you mean people who do not judge those based on their sexual orientation? Or do you mean people who do not allow their personal beliefs or lack thereof to be a factor within how they treat people? Oh.. do tell me, about me. Who are you sir, to judge what should make another happy? You sir, do not speak for everyone. You speak for you, what makes you happy would disgust some. But that is what makes life enjoyable, differences, differences of beliefs, differences of sexual orientations, differences of lifestyles, if not for the differences within life, such would be such a boring existence of distorted normality that has been guised by corrupted morality.
@waxxjf: Friend, you just don't seem to understand everything. You lash out because you're hurt by what I've said, but nothing I'm saying is out of bias, hatred, judgment, or anything of the sort. I'll answer your questions for you.
I can't condemn; only God can condemn. The word condemns, not me. I just preach the word. As for the Bible's time line? The last recorded book is the book of Revelation, which is thought to have been written in 92 A.D. and is written by the Apostle John. The Bible itself wasn't composed until centuries later, I do believe.
The statistics (the numbers themselves) are unbiased. But the website is against homosexuality. www.traditioninaction.org/HotT… There is one website for you. There is another, but it hasn't been updated since 2005. Not all of my statistics were found on websites, so I can't send you everything. Take a look if you want
Anyways. God's word is true. If it says it is wrong, then it is wrong. Who are you to say, in a world where atheism reigns, that I am wrong, and you are right? Who am I to say you are wrong and I am right? But in a world where God does exist (and I am 100% convinced there is a God) we have objective moral values to follow that will protect us. We follow His law because we love Him (His children) and they protect us from sin and its harmful consequences.
In a world where atheism reigns, you can't invalidate the Bible based on it's moral views. But in truth, God's Word remains; your word can change, my word can change, but His word will never change.
Just because something is socially acceptable doesn't mean that God's word will change. It will remain the same forever. As a Christian, I stand against sin, repenting and begging everyone to repent. Sin is destructive, it leads to death!
I am a sinner saved by grace. You can be saved by grace too. In truth, we are equal; the only difference is that I'm saved. I care about you, and I care about homosexuals. That's why I say what I do. Not to discriminate, but to show them the truth. God bless you.
@Addy4473: Where did I lash out? I asked you to back up your claims. That is not lashing out, that is asking you to support what you are saying. Or if you say that an organization or a study did this, then give the name of the study. Dear sir, you give yourself way too much credit, I am not hurt by anything you have said. I do wish you could see the hypocrisy of it all, but your beliefs are your own, I am not trying to change them, nor do I want to change them.
Yet you have condemned them. You speak of Jesus and Christianity, yet if you want to speak of these things you must also speak of the truth which is, Jesus, himself, never said one thing about gays, or it being a "sin". Yet your Jesus, did speak of loving those not like yourself, even social outcast, yet today it is the, believe what I do or god shall punish you.
The bible itself, the modern one was written between 1400 BC- 1000 AD, this is the adding things to it, or the changing things within it, it is not me saying these things, it is Christian scholars from many websites, books, and documentaries on the history of Christianity.
It is not biased but from a site that is against homosexuality? You just flawed your own premise. Looking at that link, they say "one study shows" "another study shows" yet they do not offer links to the studies themselves. So if they do not offer links to the studies themselves, how do you know that the studies are unbiased?
God's word is true ONLY for those who choose to believe in god. You cannot set your god's standards for everyone. Particularly since many faiths do not believe in your text. So it is not true for them. As I have said, if god works for you, then great. Yet I see no reason to use your god to promote bigotry and homophobia. Saying they are diseased, depressed people, such a big generalization you use for your arguments, yet with no unbiased statistic to back them up.
For my statistics, all I would have to do is link you to the health department websites and you can see the new cases of STD's etc are not within the gay community but heterosexuals. While the number of gays and STDs have been going down for a decade.
"Who are you to say, in a world where atheism reigns, that I am wrong, and you are right? "
That was funny, Atheism reigns? In a country where 80% of the country is Christian, in a world where 76% of the people are religious. Do show me how Atheism reigns.
And by reigns I mean show how Atheism is subjugating your religion, you cannot say it reigns for upholding the constitution of separation of church and state, you cannot say it reigns for people not allowing religion to dictate their lives. But do state your case.
That would hold water, if it were true, but sadly it is not.
Um, god's words have changed, many things that were "sins" in the old testament, and are now socially acceptable have been taken out of the bible, and as such are no longer "sins" to the religious person. If a person truly wishes for "god's laws" they would have to follow the old testament only, not the new, revamped to fit society new testament.
Same forever? Even though it has changed ? hm
Yet you are discriminating against them, do tell me sir, who are you to tell another they are not happy because they don't live their life the way you want them to? Whose to say your truth is their truth? The truth is subjective.
@waxxjf: Friend, I'll have to point something out with you; you're twisting my words. You need to understand that I'm not discriminating against homosexuals, or you, or anyone else. You need to just take a minute and read the sentence a few times before you come to any rash conclusions.
You lash out when you call my love "bigoted" or you imply that I am a bigot. Who are you to say that my love is bigoted? My feelings towards this are known to God, and I'm being as sincere as I can be. I truly do care, I have nothing against homosexuals in themselves, just their actions. I don't want them to burn in hell, or to continue in their lusts, that's why I say what I do.
Friend, too much credit? What do you mean?
I haven't condemned anyone. You see, you're twisting my words. I'm simply stating God's word, nothing else. His word condemns, not myself. I have no power to condemn; however, His word convicts, and He only has the power to condemn. I'm saying this because, as little as I know about Him (and nobody on this earth knows too much about Him, as odd as that sounds) we do know that only God and his Word can condemn. We only speak out His word. Thus, the word condemns.
Jesus is God. Thus, Jesus will never contradict His Father, nor argue against Him. God the Father instituted the law against homosexual acts, and God the Father gave us the gift of marriage, and clarified how marriage shall work; thus, Jesus will not contradict who He is. Also, just because Jesus never condemned homosexuality doesn't mean that He condoned it either. Jesus affirms what marriage truly is in Matthew 19 4-6. So yes, Jesus would condemn homosexuality.
Just because we're supposed to love doesn't mean that we love sin. God loves sinners, but hates sin, and can't have a relationship with us until we are forgiven of our sins through Jesus' blood.
Again, you need to listen to what I'm saying to you. The books of the Bible themselves were written and dated between different time periods, dating from the 1400s B.C. (Genesis) all the way to 95 A.D. ( I think I made an error with the date on Revelation, I was confusing it with the gospel of John lol) but they were collected and compiled by the church into an entire book. And the addition and changing of things is merely translating it from Greek to Latin, or Hebrew to Greek/Latin, Latin to English, etc., using different variations of language. I'm also pretty sure that the Bible was constructed before 1000 A.D. but I can't confirm that. Either way, you have to do the research, friend.
The website itself is considered biased because it takes a side against homosexuality. It would be the same as looking at a website for homosexuality. It will be biased. The statistics themselves, however, are unbiased and are collected from various sources. You can't invalidate the statistics just because they failed to provide a link to their own sources. You're just digging for more information and providing an illogical error against my claim.
Anywho. God's Word is true, in my eyes. What I'm saying is that I know it to be true. Whether you claim it to be true or not is up to you, and everyone else that analyzes the evidence. As a seeker of truth, I find it to be the only thing to be true when compared to other religions. So. I find it to be the only thing to be true. I've looked into it with an open heart; thus, I find truth inside of it.
Again, 78% of homosexuals have had contact with STDs. Of course, it would be hard to convince you, seeing as how you have labeled them as biased. I could easily label your statistics as biased, but I won't. These statistics might be true, but the fact is, you haven't validated that homosexuality is less prone to disease than heterosexuality. I would agree with you in saying that heterosexuals are very sexually crazy too. I'm ashamed to admit that. However, that doesn't excuse homosexuality, nor condone it.
Again, I would like you to see what I'm trying to say to you before you come to a rash conclusion. In a world where atheism reigns is hypothetical; I'm saying that if there is no higher authority or authorities, and atheism is indeed confirmed. It's a hypothetical situation. As in, if atheism is true. I'm not implying that atheism is the highest leading statistic in America. I'm sorry to have led you in the wrong direction.
And I'd like for you to give me an example of a moral law that has changed as of now. I can't find any at all. As I said, just because it's socially acceptable doesn't mean that God's word has changed. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever. So
The truth in itself cannot be changed by opinions, beliefs, or superstitions. I suppose you can include my beliefs along with your beliefs. Two lies don't make a truth. However, we both truly belief in what we say, but we can't both be right. Either one is right and the other wrong, or we're both wrong. But I'm afraid that I'm not able to submit. The evidence weighs towards homosexuality, my friend.
God bless you I'm sorry if I worded anything oddly. I'm trying to be as clear as I can be.
@Addy4473: You say I am twisting your words, I have twisted nothing, yet your words speak of the underlining tone of bigotry. Saving them from themselves. It is rather apparent to any who read them, as many have, what your intentions are. You call them 'bad" or immoral, not for what they have done, but for who they are. That is bigotry.
I did not lash out, yet your love, is a bigoted love, because it is a conditional love. You say you are trying to save them from themselves, you say that they are on a destructive path. You say that that was once you, yet you are no longer that way, gay or having homosexual tendencies, thanks to Jesus Christ. Even though Jesus himself, never spoke one word against nor for homosexuality. Of the verses that mention honoring mother and father, man shall not lay with man as women, were all written before the time of Christ.
I think I have said exactly what I meant in the message about the credit.
I am not twisting anything, I am going by exactly what you have said, you, not a god, said that they are 73% depressed, you stated, 78% have had some type of STD. Your premises, which you states were from some study, a study you could not recall the name, a study you could not recall the institute that did the study, a study from a group that may or may not have a website.
You claimed this study was unbiased, yet the only website you could find, you, yourself admitted was an anti-gay website. To which they also did not name the studies, did not name the group who did the studies, nor did they even name where they got their information.
You speak of gods words, god didn't write any study that you used to bolster your claims, god did not say they are depressed, diseased humans. Humans do such things. You put yourself up on a pedal of morality, oh yes you admit you sin, and no sin is greater than the next, yet you, think they are the ones who need "saving" from themselves from your "judging them out of love" Hypocrisy is what it is sir. It is not out of love, it is not for caring of them, it is to simply, and humanly bolster yourself by making another seem at fault. Forcing your scale of immoral morality onto those who do not believe as you do, condemning what you once were yet is no longer good for you.
Oh yes the trinity, Father, son, holy spirit all making up one "god". Written within a text of a people who even till this day, in general have no belief of y our Christ; most jews do not believe in your Christ and yet you use their text to back up your claims to attempt to bolster your beliefs in something that never had a belief in you.
God gave us the gift of marriage even though people have been getting married before they believed in your god? So text written before Christ, are being used in Christianity as the words of Christ, because they are the words of god, and Christ is god. Am I the only one who see the circular logic in that?
You cannot say what Jesus would do, you can only say what he did do. And he never spoke against homosexuality in any way. Even all of the gospels says that. Oh and there were gays at that time
since the Leviticus part is from the Hebrew bible that is to say hundreds of years before Christ it was gays then as well. So surely, if you believe Christ is intelligent he knew what they meant
and still never say anything of them.
It is sinful to you, because your book says it is. Yet who are you, to condemn those who do not believe as you do? Your book speaks of not judging and no one being in the position of judging except god. Yet you are judging a group of people for who they are, for who they had no choice to be. Are you equated yourself in the morally just position of judgment? Oh and that hypocritical comment of judging them out of love, oh please stop the hypocrisy.
I have done the research, and the dates I said were from Christian scholars who know more about that book than you or I. Are you trying to say you know more about the bibles history than men and women who have made it their profession for decades?
Actually you can, because if you say that this study shows this, the study usually shows backgrounds, and say of this, this person or that person have a higher depression rate or that. Yet when you link me to a anti-gay website which will only put the negative statistics on their page that in itself in invalidating it, because it is biased.
Sir, I do not have to dig for anything for the very website you linked me to, is fallacy. Have you read around the website? I saw several lies and inconsistencies even amongst their own text. So if you are going to use statistics, this is not elementary school sir. If you wish to back up your claim, you have to name the statistic, you have to name the group. Linking me to a biased website and claiming, they are biased but the statistics are not, is debunking your own premise.
It's true for you, that does not make it universally true for everyone. If it works for you, then great, if you need god to get up each day and make your life have a purpose, amazing, yet do not use your god as a means of hatred. Do not turn around and judge another, especially when your book speaks of you being in no position to judge. I have no religion, but if they work for others, great, yet I will not stand by and watch a minority of people, picked on, demonized, judged, by a majority just because they can. I will not stand by and allow your bigotry to continue and say nothing. That would make me no better than you. The pusher of bigotry in the name of love; oh yes we judge them because we love them. We demonize them because we care. It is all hypocrisy.
"Again, 78% of homosexuals have had contact with STDs."
Once again, what is the name of the study, what group did the study. You keep spouting out claims, and refuse to back them up. If you got them from a biased website, so say so. But your continuing to say it is not biased, yet refusing to say where you got it from only furthers the implication of the fallacy.
How can you label health department statistics as fallacy? They have no underlining agenda, an anti-gay website, does.
Well as I have told you, check out the health department website. You will see that the majority of new cases of STD's in America are 14-27 year olds, usually African American and hispanics for the leading growing statistics in urban areas. When you combine this with other health department studies, you can also see that these people are heterosexual, and that the homosexual STD peak if you will were in the mid 80s, -mid 90s for the highest of numbers, since then thanks to medical advances and such it has dropped dramatically.
Well that would be true, if it was not a lie.
Look up statistics sir, you will see, and American statistics have proven that in area with a higher Atheist percentage, the crime rate is usually lower, not higher. You are attempting to say that with Atheism there will be XY & Z going wrong. You do not have to be a theist sir to have morality.
Hm, death penalty crimes or acceptable things...Eating shell fish? Stoning your mother for wearing two different fabrics, selling your daughter into slavery, touching a dead pig, working on the sabbath etc... pretty sure these are no longer socially acceptable and religious people, well christians do not follow these things any more because pretty much all of them would be killed if they were to truly follow all of the text new and old.
That book was written by man, for man, to keep people enslaved, it has been rewritten or altered dozens of times, is this the book of absolute which has been changed so drastically between each version the book you claim is absolute truth?
But you must admit that religion is not a "truth". In fact the very definition of faith is to believe in something you have no proof or evidence to believe.
Religious truth is an ultimate opinion of a higher power, and many have changed their beliefs, some converted to beliefs that went against what they use to believe, some stopped believing altogether. So you see, it can and has been changed many times.
You say your book is truth, even though the story of Christ is not an original idea, you do know that right? That many so called prophets in ancient times were recorded as being born to a virgin, walking on water, had healing abilities, and yet to Christians these are only myths and superstitions, yet they believe their savior can do such things.
What "evidence", if you mean words written in a book, that is belief, not evidence. Evidence would be you showing me, without religious text, where homosexuality has corrupted a people.
@waxxjf: You just need to understand what I'm trying to say. So I'll sum up in this message.
1. Jesus may not have outright spoken against homosexuality, but that doesn't mean that He condoned the process. Jesus is God, the Son of God. Thus, He humbles Himself to the Father, and agrees with the Father. He is in the Father, and the Father in Him. If God the Father instituted a law against homosexuality, He will not disagree with the Father, but on the contrary, agree with Him. Thus, if God the Father says that it is an abomination, Jesus will agree with Him. It's common sense.
That alone shows that you need to think about what you're telling me before you type it. I'm telling you, He never talked about beastiality either; never condemned it; but does that mean that He condoned it? If you deny this claim, then you belief in a ridiculous claim. I'm sorry, I'm trying to be loving, but you are lashing out, so I have to state it as it is.
2. The statistics themselves are unbiased. You see, I've looked up statistics that support homosexuality; they are unbiased as well. I can't invalidate them just because I'm against them. In fact, I believe that they are valid. However, they only state hate-crimes and population statistics. They don't necessarily give a good view for homosexuality, they just state general truths, such as in 1973, it was removed as a disease, or statistics against hate crimes. I don't condone hate crimes; I believe we should show love towards homosexuals. However, that doesn't condone the action. My statistics show the physical harm in homosexuality. They are valid statistics. Are you sure you aren't disowning them just because they are against your cause?
3. The many religions? I can't disown this claim. However, you have to understand a few things. A. The earliest known "Savior" religion; B. Palestine between 6 B.C.-30 A.D. (The context of the situation itself, such as if such religions surrounded Palestinian area) C. The validity of these religions.
4. I'm not claiming that atheists don't have moral values. I do claim, however, that they don't have objective moral values. As in, their moral values are either self-fabricated or adopted. In Christianity, we are given a law to abide by; thus, we have objective moral values.
5. Christ's coming was predicted all the way back at the fall of man, in the book of Genesis. Genesis 3:15 is a direct prediction from God himself. Predictions all over the New Testament assert the coming of a Messiah, thus, the original Messiah originates from the beginning. Jesus is the first proclaimed Savior. And the only one.
6. Your claims for the inconsistencies in the text? State a few.
7. I won't argue with you about "bigoted" love. I know my own motives, and you can assume what you want. Analyze your own motives for arguing against me and compare them to mine. Be honest, and tell me why you say what you do, and I'll be honest too. I've already stated mine; I care about you and I care about homosexuals, and I want them to see that the way they live is destructive. I can see that from here. However, I want to show them a better life; and they have to make the choice. I can't force anything on anyone. However, whether you think it's bigoted or not does not make it bigoted. Your logic is prone to error, and cannot evaluate my motives. So.
8. Once again, there are 3 different rules in Leviticus; Ceremonial, Civil, Moral. Not eating shellfish, Sabbath regulations, etc. are no longer in effect, but God's moral laws are still in effect. Such as, men laying with other men, incest, bestiality, etc. God's Word does not change. However, the civil and ceremonial laws were specified for Israel.
9. I am not judging, as I've stated previously; God's Word judges. I cannot judge, I only speak His word. If you don't like me, that's something I have to live with. The truth hurts, friend.
God bless anything else? Let's try to keep this on a friendlier level, btw.
@Addy4473: I understood well and clear what you were trying to say, I just do not believe it. So therefore since I hold no belief in what you believe your issues of morality and sin, I would never agree with more than likely. But sure, I shall address your points as I have gotten them in numbered faction.
1] Yes I am well aware of your polytheistic beliefs, well Christians say monotheistic but when you have three entities that make up one, that is still a polytheistic belief.
Anyway let me now address your points. Jesus if you read the bible was very outspoken of what he wanted or expected from a people, as well as very outspoken of what he went against. He spoke very harshly against the church of the time, he spoke very harshly of the wealthy, very harshly of the man who could do something but chose not to.
So your saying of all the things that he spoke against, the sins he spoke against, this just happen to slip his mind? You're saying that him never mentioned it does not mean he condones, I am saying him never mentioning it, does not mean he hated it.
You are speaking from the words of men, not Christ who spoke of men and women, you are speak of god, in the Hebrew bible who spoke against not laying with men as they do women. What you are missing, is the words from your Christ himself.
If you are saying Christ was against this
yet he spoke nothing of it. Yet every other thing pretty much that he was against he spoke against freely.
You are saying God said it, yes I know in Christianity father, son, and holy spirit all make up god, yet even with that logic, saying one said it, does not mean you can just attribute it to the other.
No difference than your not saying something means you endorse it.
"That alone shows that you need to think about what you're telling me before you type"
Oh yea, saying one entity said something, but not the other, means he just went with it, is me having to think
um, no because there is a gaping hole of lack of logic within that illogical circular logic.
Once again, there you go attempting to compare homosexuality to bestiality. So you equate two same sex humans, with sex with an animal?
He would not have to say that because it is unnatural for man to have sex with an animals.
It is not unnatural for two males to have sex, for even before the time of your god, Judaism, Islam, even ancient wall paintings show two men engaging in sex, or the Romans it was no secret that they engaged in some same sex practices.
So do make logical comparisons before debunking your own premise with illogical claims.
2] You say the statistics are unbiased, yet you have not shown me the statistics. What you have done is link me to a site, you, yourself admit is anti-homosexuality. Even that site could not show the statistics themselves.
If you showed me the statistics, and I can read the entire statistic, as well as take the year as a factor within the statistics, then whether I agree with them or not, it would be true or false. But you, by your own admission, do not know the name of the statistics, do not know the group that performed the statistic, do not know if they have website or not.
Of course you believe they are valid, because they support what you believe, and that is that homosexuals are immoral,
Are you trying to use legal remedies for your bible dear sir? To say because it is no longer a mental disorder, or it was added to the hate crime list that that in some way supports your biblical claims?
"Are you sure you aren't disowning them just because they are against your cause?"
What cause? Sir, you have not shown me any statistic.
You have said 73% of gays are depressed, 78% of gays have had some STD.
But you cannot remember where you saw it, you cannot remember what group did the study, and you of course cannot remember their site.
The only site you did link me to, once again, you yourself admitted it was an anti-gay site. Even they could not show the statistics themselves.
3]A - There are many savior religions, or rather there were, many ancient beliefs had some sort of savior within them. Or had people who had been born into beliefs that were said to be prophets.
B- I suppose it depends on what you mean Palestinian make up rather then their religious beliefs.
C. What religion are you speaking of; The spiritualist type of beliefs that you and even the people there now deem as myths and superstition. I mean you cannot be speaking of Islam because islam was not even a religion until hundreds of years later. Or are you referring to the Roman conversion to Christianity?
4] No, in Christianity you have a sense of common sense morality that you think are from a god. They are common sense things, generally as far as your commandments go. That you attempt to say do this not because it is right or wrong, but for the mere fact that some god said it is right or wrong.
That is not objective morality, especially since as I have stated it has been altered several times in its 2000 years since its dawning, objective or rather undistorted it is not.
It is a nice little allegory to tell the people what they should already know, yet that does not make it "the truth" because someone wrote down what either was already written down from Hebrew bible, or wrote down what was already.
5] A prophet coming has been the center for every religion for thousands of years, and for most of them their prophet did come, and for some of them, what do you know those ancients "prophets' or gods, could do the exact same thing as your Christ, does that make them less than?
I guess you never read up on ancient religions.
6] Just a few, of which you will try and explain them I am sure.
One verse states god was pleased with his creation Genesis 1:31, yet later in genesis it says god was not pleased genesis 6:5-6.
Also in genesis it contradicts when Adam dies, one passage states when eating from the tree of knowledge you would die, genesis 2:17
yet said Adam lived for 930 years genesis 5:5
Hm or when god asked cain where is his brother, genesis 4:9
yet in several verses I could name god speaking of no one being able to hide from em, and he is everywhere and sees everything and that nothing is hidden to him, would you like the verses to this?
As well as in genesis they have noah entering his Ark for the first time
and then a few verses later have him entering the ark for the first time yet again, Genesis 7:7 and genesis 7:13.
In matthew jesus heals two blind men, in mark he only heals one.
Revelation 8:7.. fields of grass were burned
relevation 9:4. no grass was burned and nothing green was to be burned,
God said noah, job and a few others were righteous yet in romans 3:10 says that no one is righteous
Okay I have given you seven, I could have given you several more but I shall stop here.
7] Once again, it is bigoted if it comes with conditions, or if you are hating or disliking, or finding in them just for who they are. That is bigotry, to judge not based on a person for what they have done, but for simply who they are. Be it because they gay, black, white, muslim etc.
I have already told you my reasons, I accept all people, I do not care of your beliefs, I do not care of your sexual orientation, I do not care of your race, ethnicity, gender, I can be cool with everyone, and I do not judge them based on these things. I do judge them for what they do, how they treat others.
Yet you are judging people, not for anything they have done, for simply who they are.
"I want to show them a better life"
You are under the assumption that your life is better. How do you know they are not happy?
I know plenty of homosexual Christians, and the one thing they have in common, is that their god, loves them no matter what, that their god will judge them for what they have done not for who they were born as. They believe that their god is one of love, not hatred but going to judge them for being how they believe he made them.. and they are some of the happiest people I know.
But your staking a claim, they are unhappy and depressed, oh yes disease ridden as well, because of
touching back.. on unsupported statistics.
You saying you judge them for what they are, that is bigotry. Or your saying you are trying to save them from themselves. If everyone truly sins and no sin is greater than the other as you claim. Then why not focus on another, why is this particular group holds such a great destruction to you?
Granted you being an ex homosexuals knows better than I do of such things, maybe you were one of these extreme cases, maybe not. Yet that does not answer the question of why are they are so "lucky" to be targeted.
It is easier to target a minority that is use to being victimized than to look at the mirror and judge ourselves for what we do.
8] wait, did you just say no longer in effect. Wait, did I read that correctly? No longer in effect. You are the one who said gods laws do not change, so if they are no longer in affect.
Speaking of incest, you are aware that there were several incestuous relationships going on in the bible don't you? Lot slept with his daughters, Abraham married his half sister, Abraham's brother married his niece. Amnon raped his own sister.
what a sin.
9] Actually you said previously that you are judging out of love, which is still judging.
@waxxjf: Friend, you misunderstand the Holy trinity.
1. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are all God; it's not polytheistic. It's the same idea of family. Multiple persons consist of one family. Thus, The idea that multiple persons can consist of one God is possible. However, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are equal in power. God the Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit is God's presence. The Father and The Son are One. The Bible states that they are one another. Say, for instance, that God the Father condemned murder, but Jesus supported it. If they are both God and contradict one another, then chaos would erupt, and the idea that they are both the same God would fall apart. But they harmonize in perfection with one another. Thus, they do not contradict one another. You lack the understanding of the nature of the Holy Trinity. They are 3 persons in one. They cannot contradict one another, for they are all God. It's confusing, but it's true. There is only one God. It's not polytheistic. Jesus condemns homosexuality.
Yes, He never mentioned it. But He does give God's idea for marriage in Matthew 19. You can't just say that He condones marriage based on your interpretation of His love. His love is vast, as vast as His justice. But He cannot tolerate sin. Homosexuality is a sin. Jesus never condones it. He condemns it. It's not man's word, but God's word. You just fail to understand the relationship.
Look I can see your motive here. You're just trying to irritate me in order to "win". What have you truly won? Your life has no ultimate meaning. You can't even confirm your own truth. I'm trying to help you, and you've done nothing but antagonized me. In your world, we are just accidents. It doesn't matter what you do, just benefit yourself until you die, and that's it. I can't argue with someone that just wants to tear someone down that's trying to help them. I'm sorry if this seems hurtful, but we're both biased here. The only difference is the motive. I want to help you, but you only wish to try to invalidate my Bible. I could continue arguing against you, but it would be to no avail. You've already decided you're going to close your heart against me. I've tried helping you, but Jesus also told me not to dangle pearls in front of swine. Your own biased views have led you into this hateful frenzy. I am a bit irritated, but I still love you. I'm not going to try anymore. I'll keep praying for you. If you think you've won, then it's fine. You'll never truly know until you either give your life to Christ, or you're in hell (which, I don't want you to go there, but I can't make the decision for you). God bless you.
@Addy4473: so of everything you asked you only saw it fit to address one
. As I said in my reply to you, I said you believe them to be one already
Yet it is a bit different than families, surely they are all one family, yet you would not attribute what one said to the other.
", God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are equal in power. God the Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit is God's presence"
They are equal but one is over the rest.. hm,
Once again I have already stated that you believe they are one
"Jesus condemns homosexuality."
Do show one verse backing up your claim. To say the father, son and holy spirit are three separate entities making up one "god" show any place where Jesus spoke against gays.
I will give you that god "spoke" against gays, as did several others, but jesus never did.
Um, he does give gods idea for marriage, and then you give a gospel which was written by someone else. From a verse that religious scholars are even torn about who wrote it. Some believe Matthew wrote it, other scholars believe a Jewish convert to Christianity wrote it and others believe it can be attributed to the writings of ancient greek, all still show the importance of jesus not writing it.
No where did I say that he "condones' or demonizing marriage, I said gays, a sexuality is not an act. Sexuality is feeling, marriage is an act. I said gays, not marriage.
You say he condemns it
. Do show a verse where a gospel says jesus says this or that.
Assuming you also already know that many of the gospels were written long after jesus died.
Um, my motives? Let us not forget you commented me on that video. Let us not forget that you first brought up the morality and such when I only answered a guy about if people followed the bible literally.
There is no winning or losing in something that is subjective. There is opinion, you have yours, and I have mines. That is all.
Who said life has no meaning? You say life has a meaning because you have god, I say life's meaning is what you do with it. Ones life meaning could be the raising of their children, the love within their friendships. Meaning is like faith, subjective to interpretation.
"You can't even confirm your own truth"
Hm, what truth? Everything I said can be backed up with health department.
Then you challenged me to find inconsistencies in the bible, I gave you seven.
Then you spoke of incest being a sin, I gave you several cases of incest in the bible.
So what truths of mines have I not backed up?
In my world, what world is that?
Oh do show me one place, one place where I said what you do in your life does not matter, even one.
"I can't argue with someone that just wants to tear someone down that's trying to help them."
from the guy who said you judge them, because you love them
"I'm sorry if this seems hurtful"
what part of you cannot hurt me did you not get?
Hurt stems from betrayal, and betrayal implies trust.
"I want to help you"
Hm, help me? How are you helping me? We went from you wanting to help gays, and now to me. Even though I have told you I am not gay.
"but you only wish to try to invalidate my Bible"
no where did I invalidate the bible.
You are the one who asked for the inconsistencies, you are the one who spoke of incest.
So because your bible backed up my claim of there being inconsistencies, as well as incest I am the one trying to invalidate it now?
"You've already decided you're going to close your heart against me"
I will not disrespect your beliefs, by entertaining them. So if close my heart you mean I will never agree with you, then yes, you are correct.
"I've tried helping you, but Jesus also told me not to dangle pearls in front of swine."
So I am now likened to swine, I have been called dear sir.
"Your own biased views have led you into this hateful frenzy."
Hateful frenzy? Saying I will not judge others based on their race, religion, sexual orientation is hateful.. on the contrary dear sir, to not judge based on such trivial things is the best thing that one can do.
"If you think you've won, then it's fine."
Once again, there is no winning, there are but subjective opinions of beliefs.
You may keep your Christ, if it makes you happy, by all means, be happy. Yet I am more than content, probably more so with not having your Christ, than you are with having your christ
[No answer as of July 11th, 2010. 4pm EST]