Socialism Debate I

Do read Artist comments first to get the background story on this debate:

As usual with these post, the top person is the first comment, and each reply beneath it is a reply to the former comment

I am Emanon and the person I am debating is c0ttonmouth
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Rayna said: [Posted photo of Sarah Palin]


C0ttonmouth said:
Caption:

Don't ask me you guys voted for the socialist bastard.


Emanon said:
lmao, I love how socialist have become such a negative thing in this country.



C0ttonmouth said:
It's going to get worse comrade.


Emanon  said:
Yea, I have heard that before.


C0ttonmouth said:
Get used to it.


Emanon said:
When one opposes something they will always say that it will make things worst.


C0ttonmouth said:
Listen Emanon, do you see how bad the Demoncrats are doing in the polls for the midterms? That is because the progressives are becoming exposed for what they are. America does not want socialism, we know things are wrong but we value our freedoms too much. How many people agreed with the English lady's mumm about government intervention in medical decisions. Not many. Even less will agree when it becomes apparent what that really means on a personal level. So think what you like but I have faith in freedom loving Americans.


Emanon said:
It all depends what polls you are looking at as usual, we have already had this discussion.

"America does not want socialism"
From a country that already has it and have had it for quite some time....

"we know things are wrong but we value our freedoms too much"
Socialism is not about taking your freedoms away, hm, what freedoms have you lost in the past 100 years? hm.

"How many people agreed with the English lady's mumm about government intervention in medical decisions"
I would not know, since I never vote on her mumms. Though simply because the majority want or doesn't want something does not make them correct.

"So think what you like but I have faith in freedom loving Americans."
...and socialism would not make it any less free than you have known it.


C0ttonmouth said:
In the last year or two I lost the freedom to choose if I want to buy a product or not and the freedom to own a business without worrying that it may be deemed to big to fail and it's assets seized by the government. I have lost a little more privacy due to the fact that the wall street reform bill includes a provision that allows monitoring of every finical transaction with the exception of stocks. Did you read that let me repeat it the WALL STREET reform bill monitors people buying habits except for stocks.

I'm busy but there are loads more. Your last statement is just ludicrous I am quite a bit older than you and can remember a much freer time. That's is the problem, if you knew what is was like you would not so easily give more up.

Much of America had not noticed the gradual and "progressive" towards socialism but I think you can tell they are waking up quite quickly. That is the problem your guys will have, eventually you will have to take big bites and not just little nibbles and the big bites are noticeable.


Emanon  said:
You lost the freedom to not take care of yourself?
The health care bill states, with the exception of small businesses, if a business can afford health care for its citizens, it should offer it to them. As well as for private citizens, if they can afford health care, that they should get it. If they are small businesses, or lower class, or lower-mid middle class citizens and cannot afford it, then the government/taxes would subsidize it for them.

... what do you think the analysis do on wall street everyday? They have been looking at peoples buying habits for years, this is nothing new.

Sure, you can, age has nothing to do with it.

We can look at several past socialist whose views were going to "destroy this nation".
When Eugene v debs spoke against this country, the president, and told what he wanted, many republicans said his "socialist platform' would be the destruction of this country. What did he want? What was so bad that it would destroy this nation? Equal rights for blacks, a set minimal wage, an end to child labor, this would "destroy" the nation according to republicans at that time.

Or we can look at socialist like Bayard Rustin, A. Philip Randolph who fought for the rights of people who had none, who were threatened with death for attempting to "ruin this country" with what they wanted.

Though not threatened, in fact respected, was the writer of your pledge of allegiance, bellamy was an anti-capitalist socialist. He was a "christian socialist" which meant he thought they worked hand in hand.He said socialism was more christ like because it addressed need, not wealth.

Or when Reagan said that medicare, offering the elderly medical coverage would be the end of this nation within a few years, hm, yea did not turn out that way.

Or more modern, when San Francisco passed it a decade ago, many republicans said it would raise taxes, etc, yet in general taxes when down [in regards to medical cost].

Most America do not know the difference between socialism and communism.


Emanon  said:
*I meant employees not citizens


C0ttonmouth said:
First of all a business does not have citizens it has employees and it should not be an employers job in any way shape or form to be mandated to furnish you insurance anymore that it should be to furnish you clothes or food. Why simply because you do a task for me for money should I give you anything else?

What is the core connection between socialism and communism? Is it that the means of production are not privately owned? Sounds kind of anti- small business to me, but what do I know I'm just a small business owner. I find nothing about him being anti-capitalism but admit I have not read much. I will. It does say that he influenced Nazism, there is something to be proud of. Just because many people like the pledge he wrote does not mean they believe in his core values.


Some key differences between Bellamy's views of socialism and todays are that he revered the constitution and the flag.

His quote It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution... with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands'.

You don't hear many socialists speak like that.


Emanon said:
If you looked below I already corrected that I meant employees not citizen.

The money will come from one of two places in general, either it will come from the company, who makes more than enough to supply their employees with medical coverage; or it will come from medicaid which is just the government/taxes paying for it.

Nope, communism in facts wants people to be paid a set wage, socialism actually grants payment by amount of work that one has put in.

Read his books, Bellamy has written several books, papers, anecdotes etc on his socialist utopia. He has also written several things, when writing about socialism that shows his distaste for capitalism.

Nope, that is where you are incorrect. Only relation to him and Nazi that people tried to tarnish his name was that the salute that was used to pledge the flag was similar to the Nazi Salute. Yet that salute, has been used for many years before Nazism, and is still used in many places now as a salute.

So? Socialist, particularly American ones have shown great respect for the constitution and even used it to get things like civil rights for blacks, ending child labor laws.

When Debs was thrown in prison, the president even quoted the constitution saying debs did not violate it and that is what got him his pardoned.

Yet even with his pledge it was disrespected. with the adding of under god, it was greatly disrespected. Bellamy wrote when writing about his pledge that he did not mention god nor religion because he wanted a pledge that would be inclusive, and yet with one change of the wording they [Eisenhower] with the signing to make it official made it exclusive

Oh yea, I guess you never read speeches from Debs, Rustin, Randolph, even Bellamy.


C0ttonmouth said:
Yeah, I saw Obama's little girls give up that salute at a parade and when michelle saw what they were doing she stopped them. I wonder why if Americans love socialism so much would she stop them?

you said "nope, communism in facts wants people to be paid a set wage, socialism actually grants payment by amount of work that one has put in."........... So who owns the companies?


Emanon said:
"Yeah, I saw Obama's little girls give up that salute at a parade and when michelle saw what they were doing she stopped them. I wonder why if Americans love socialism so much would she stop them? "

*face palms* Hm, funny, back on Obama already. I gave you three more replies before you would get to him. It is not a socialist salute... Obama is too capitalistic to be a socialist. As well as in America, now, people salute the flag with one hand over the heart, the facing open hand towards flag has not been used for many decades. So why should she not stop them?

Private citizens, yet funny thing about this, it is socialism when Obama wants to cover people for education and medical coverage. Hm, where was all the screaming and fear tactics when things from a socialist doctrine of government interference was used to bail out the companies. hm.


C0ttonmouth said:
The poll by Democracy Corps, the firm of James Carville and Stan Greenberg, estimates that 55 percent of likely voters believe "socialist" is a somewhat accurate description of Obama. Poll respondents were asked about a list of words and how well they related to Obama.

A majority of likely voters, 56 percent, also found that Obama is too liberal - 35 percent saying it describes him as "very well," 21 percent saying "well," another 21 percent saying "not too well" and 17 percent saying "not well at all.


Emanon  said:
Socialism, or rather democratic socialism as America has had for over a century. speaks of working in relation to amount paid.

Yet, when one cannot work, is too sickly, or whatever the case may be. It also addresses that person being taken care of, by the government/people. In the American socialist doctrine, assuming you read it, you will see that is what is meant.

Shed away democrat and republican, both are equally fucked up. The average American, regardless of party thinks socialism is the same as communism.

How would America feel about Debs? Rustin? Randolph? Great men, a mans politics and want for equality does not, in the eyes of those without power, a bad person. I mean MLK Jr. himself even said Randolph was one of his greatest inspirations, and he hired Rustin as one of his top Advisers, as well as saying he respected his views.

Ask those same people polled to name five American socialist and what do you want to bet they cannot?

Oh back to the numbers again.

Okay question since you brought up the poll. How many people were polled?


C0ttonmouth said:
We can go back and forth all day but you will never convince me that socialism is good and when you grow up you will change your mind. So best of luck in Nov. and see ya at the polls.


Emanon said:
I am not trying to convince you of anything. I believe I have stated my cases within America of socialist, both politicians and the average citizen who pushed for equality, who pushed for great things that even now this nation holds dear.

You have been saying that grow up line for months, my views as time has progressed have only strengthened not been weakened. I am, and shall always be a very proud, socialist, a very proud humanist, and a very, very proud globalist. My views are my own, they do not require acceptance, nor reverence for them to be mines. Just as your politics, are yours.


C0ttonmouth said:
Views change.


Emanon  said:
Mines won't.


C0ttonmouth said:
That's what a lot of people including myself used to say.


Emanon said:
Well I shall only be quite ecstatic that my views are ones that I am quite set in, as you are in the ones you have now.

[Original Conversation took place July 10th]
Two weeks later, I saw him speaking to another conservative and lying and saying I never addressed his comment, so I then commented him again to show that he was lying …


jozeF duke of URL z said:

If a Republican decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A Democrat demands that the rest of us pay for his.


C0ttonmouth said:
I know I asked E-man the other day why did he think that just because an employee agreed to work for me for a prearranged amount of pay, is it my place to pay for anything extra? For example health insurance. He never had an answer and ignored the question.


Emanon  said:
I answered your question in that response, after a long answer, you focused on one part of the answer to reply to.


C0ttonmouth said:
So why then?


Emanon said:
www.fubar.com/mum.php?id=60180…

hm, I never answered you yet there is the entire conversation and you can clearly see I answered you on your business and health care comment.

.. next time you try and lie, at least make sure the evidence has been erased.


C0ttonmouth said:
This is your quote from that reply....
"The money will come from one of two places in general, either it will come from the company, who makes more than enough to supply their employees with medical coverage; or it will come from medicaid which is just the government/taxes paying for it."

That does not really answer my question in fact that ignores the question I asked. So the next time you call someone a lair make sure that they actually did lie and at the very least sure that is was not an honest mistake. lol@ evidence, what is this a crime scene?


Emanon  said:
I did not call you a lair, I called you a liar. As you are, you claimed I never addressed it at all, when the very post you proved that I did not ignore it and address it.

It does address your statement of why should you, because if a people are doing a task for you, and the company can afford to provide them with health care, then they should.

I love how you republicans always speak of getting people off the tax dollar, yet you do not want the employers to provide for their workers so they would not have to be on the tax dollar.

Lmao @ you thinking evidence is only in relation to a crime scene... and here I thought your intelligence peaked higher than that.


C0ttonmouth said:
Well to be factual I said you ignored the question not the comment. You addressed the comment but ignored the actual question I asked.

I'm all for employers who want to provide extras for their employees as an incentive to draw good workers. The thing I don't see is why is it seen as an employers place or duty to supply anything extra such as food, clothes or health coverage. Will you explain to me why you think that? If you had ever really answered this basic question then we could have moved on.


Emanon  said:
Exactly, ignored the question. Not answered to your satisfaction is not ignoring, yet you had no problem with that answer ten days ago. It was answered to your satisfaction then or you would have said something rather than moving on to other things.

Employees are being to told to provide food, and clothes? I think I missed that memo of the health care bill....

As far as coverage I just told you, I shall try and answer yet again.. since this is like the 10th time we have had this discussion.

I see no reason why companies making millions, and billions of dollars should not offer their workers medical coverage if they can afford it. I see no reason why in this country why millions of people working 40+ hrs a week at multi-billion dollar companies should not be insured by their employers.

Yes, you think they should just offer a pay check and that is all, yet when you have 50K Americans dying each year uninsured, many of which are working for a living, I see no reason once again why they shouldn't insure em.

.. I hear this argument many times from the right especially, they don't want companies to have to insure them, they also don't want the government to insure them, yet they have no clear plan as to the worth of 50K lives lost each year.


C0ttonmouth said:
So that is your answer, because you don't see why not? I can see you have put a lot of thought into it.


Emanon said:
lmao, typical one liner. great.


[no answer as of July 27th 8pm EST]